| Author | Topic | Shredhead
Junior Member
Australia
322 Posts |  Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 06:10:43  
| Yeeeees....all very interesting , very . With quite far reaching implications .
Now , once again lol , can I just preface my questions with a little disclaimer . I'm in no way judging the American nation or it's people , my questions are more about authority , than the founding of America , or any other country .
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However, with regard to the US Constitution, and the delegation of powers, that Godly authority is bestowed on the Citizenry first, and then to the leaders in government. Just as any leader has his governing authority given them by God (such as any monarch, emporor, shiek, king...or whatever), so too has that authority been given to the citizens of this country.
Is there a scriptual precedent for this ? Where God gives civil authority to " the people " via an uprising , because of bad leadership or tyrany ?
Please hear my heart on this , because as I've said , I'm looking to apply this on a personal level..... no , I'm not about to invade New Zealand lol . I've just always taken Rom 13 on face value , as well as the other scripture re: complaining against that leadership .
I really like Joseph & the way he handled bad leadership & unjust treatment etc . He saw Gods' bigger picture , & therefore trusted God at His word . Now , because my American history is about as good as your Australian history , I'm not saying the American fathers didn't do this .
It is noted that all of the early church founders submitted to Roman rule without compromising their faith , until they were told to " worship " something other than God , in which case they were martyred .
So I guess my question is , does threat to ones life or mistreatment of ones self , qualify a Christian to disobey authority ? Or , do we submit to that authority , believing that God has His plan , of which we are a part ?
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but some of you need to be awakened and slapped silly - William D Rauser |  |
| AXEMAN2415
Guitar Weenie
USA
740 Posts | Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 10:41:42
| quote:
So I guess my question is , does threat to ones life or mistreatment of ones self , qualify a Christian to disobey authority ? Or , do we submit to that authority , believing that God has His plan , of which we are a part?
This is a complicated question. But allow me to ask a parallel question: Would it have been wrong for the German people to rise up against Hitler, once they became aware of the absolute moral outrage of the Holocaust?
Hitler was the established government of Germany (he was elected chancellor. And the German people were aware of the atrocities commited, yet they stood aside and did nothing. Was it morally justified, based on Romans 13, to allow such slaughter and injustice to continue? Bear in mind, I understand the climate under which you ask your question, and I am not accusing you of being hyperspiritual. Your question is legitimate.
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I really like Joseph & the way he handled bad leadership & unjust treatment etc . He saw Gods' bigger picture , & therefore trusted God at His word .
I like the way Joseph responded, as well, but there are a few key things to take into consideration: Joseph had been given visions by God about his personal future since he was a child. Joseph believed in the promises that were declared by those visions. Although Joseph suffered indignity and injustice several times over, he recognized and believed in the vision for the final outcome. I think that this is a critical distinction from justifiably disobeying an unjust rule.
Allow me to point to another huge Biblical character: Daniel. Daniel went to the Lion's Den for civil disobedience. So did his buddies Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego. Yes, it was over religious tyranny. However, in Daniel's case, it was over a made-up scandal, unjustly purported by his rivals out of jealousy. And Daniel went home, after hearing the new law regarding worship of any other god besides the King, and he purposely opened his window and prayed, out loud, to his God. So Daniel was kind of being civily disobedient.
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quote:However, with regard to the US Constitution, and the delegation of powers, that Godly authority is bestowed on the Citizenry first, and then to the leaders in government. Just as any leader has his governing authority given them by God (such as any monarch, emporor, shiek, king...or whatever), so too has that authority been given to the citizens of this country.
Is there a scriptual precedent for this ? Where God gives civil authority to " the people " via an uprising , because of bad leadership or tyrany?
Where, in Romans 13, or anywhere else, as I explained earlier, is it expressly commanded that governing be by a monarch? As a matter of fact, God did not want Israel to even have a king, but the Israelites demanded one. It was never God's intention for such a thing in the first place.
Romans 13 expressly says "Those in authority". How that manifests itself is irrelevant.
Now, it is hard to express my tone with typed text. I am not angry, or indignant, nor sarcastic. I understand Shred's questions, and his points are far reaching and worth considering. However, I must also point out that there are those who refuse to make a stand, based on Romans 13 (and like Scriptures). The Scripture in James says, "Therefore, if someone knows the good they ought to do, and doesn't do it, sins." Sometimes, the good isn't the governing authorities.
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"C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!" |
Edited by - AXEMAN2415 on 09 Jul 2007 10:43:25 | |
| Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 21:03:05   
| Canned worms anyone? 
Abraham went out to search for a new country...
The Pilgrims left England in part due to religious oppression by The Church of England which is commonly accepted historic fact.
Could this be attribured also as one of their ultimate motivations though not specifically listed in the Declaration?
Maybe by some and not others hence the limitations of direct association of Government and religion.
You could possibly cite divisions within the nation of Israel as it applied to acceptance of certain leaders (David) etc.
However it came about.... God has allowed it to stand to this point.... Rhere have certainly been historic implications/effects of our existence... to include preservation of and aid to the nation of Israel (WWII etc...)
We have sertainly seemed to have played a necessary role in the course of human events... |
President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
| Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 21:04:21
| | uhhh.... that's *certainly* |
President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
| AnonJr
Absent-minded Webmaster
USA
621 Posts | Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 22:51:13
| That's what the "Edit Post" button ( ) is for at the top of each post.  |
There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole government working for you.
- Will Rogers | |
| Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 10 Jul 2007 : 00:25:21
| quote:
Originally posted by AnonJr
That's why Blasto is sooo cool... P.S. the "Edit Post" button () is for at the top of each post.
 |
President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
| Shredhead
Junior Member
Australia
322 Posts | Posted - 10 Jul 2007 : 05:38:41
| quote:
Now, it is hard to express my tone with typed text. I am not angry, or indignant, nor sarcastic.
No worries here mate
quote:
Where, in Romans 13, or anywhere else, as I explained earlier, is it expressly commanded that governing be by a monarch? As a matter of fact, God did not want Israel to even have a king, but the Israelites demanded one. It was never God's intention for such a thing in the first place.
It doesn't lol . Sorry if I wasn't being clear , I'm not saying a monarchy has Gods' blessing , nor am I saying a republic , democracy or even a totalitarian regime has . I believe He is our King , not some wealthy individual who's last name happens to be Windsor , or , some other person that's been elected as the best of a bad bunch .
I think Gods' plan was for Him to be our King & then us be governed by His appointed officials ...... before you ask , appointed by Him lol , like most of the OT kings , or elders of the NT church .
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Allow me to point to another huge Biblical character: Daniel. Daniel went to the Lion's Den for civil disobedience. So did his buddies Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.
Exactly Axe , & who shut the lions mouths ? , who was in the furnace with Daniels three mates ? , who busted Peter out of prison ? who delivered the Israelites ? Not themselves , not their brothers , not the monarch of the time , not the elected officials , God did .
Why ? all these people allowed God to move on their behalf . They didn't take things into their own hands , unlike the Eureka stockade { revolution Aussie style lol }.
I also think it note worthy that in the few instances I've used above , God , was glorified , isn't that , our ultimate reason for existance ? As well as that , all those involved got to see our God , first hand , on a level I certainly haven't experienced .
Did they all have a vision from their youth ? nope , or did they just understand that where they are , is where God would have them , irrespective of their circumstances or evil leaders . they understood that God has a plan , & they were right in the middle of it , even at their own expense . Jesus understood it in the garden , Peter didn't .
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And the German people were aware of the atrocities commited, yet they stood aside and did nothing. Was it morally justified, based on Romans 13, to allow such slaughter and injustice to continue?
No , not all . No more than it would be right for us to walk on by a woman being stoned , & say , " well , she's right where God wants her " . I think this is also at least echoed in the good Samaritan parable .
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And Daniel went home, after hearing the new law regarding worship of any other god besides the King, and he purposely opened his window and prayed, out loud, to his God. So Daniel was kind of being civily disobedient.
You bet he was , was he right to do so ? you bet , why ? because Gods' law always overrides any civil law , contrary to His .
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We have sertainly seemed to have played a necessary role in the course of human events...
Undeniably so my friend , but please remember , I'm not picking on America .
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Abraham went out to search for a new country...
Abraham went where , & did what , God told him .
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The Pilgrims left England in part due to religious oppression by The Church of England which is commonly accepted historic fact.
& I accept that Capn . But lets forget about America , Australia , Iran , Iraq , England etc for a minute . Imagine next Sunday you're at church , it gets raided , closed down & told to cease operations effective immediately , some of your members even get roughed up .Do you leave the country ? do you become obedient to the authorities ? or do you stay , disobey the authorities { rightly so } , continue to have church , believe God will deliver you , wait for that deliverance from the confines of a jail cell { like Peter , Paul or even John Bunyan }, or the stone thrown from some official , as was the case with Stephen .
See , I think we { myself at the top of the list } as the Church , are in danger of loosing sight of the bigger picture , Gods' plan . Someone once said.....I forget who , that Truth cannot be measured by ones own happiness , today that seems to be reversed , happiness defines truth .....work with me people , I will come back to my original point lol . God says , homosexuality is an abomination , we say , oh , I don't like that ! I know , let's find some homosexuals & ordain them as ministers of the gospel .
I see , sorry , I've experienced , in my own compromisings the same thing with authority . I've disobeyed because it simply wasn't convenient , without a thought to the witness I was leaving the world . Let's look at our Brothers in China , Russia , Indonesia , Uganda , do they need God to deliver them from their abusive leaders ? Is that what they're praying for ? { I know that's what I'd be praying for , just like the Israelites } , or are they praying for enough strength to endure , so as to not bring shame upon their Lord ? Are they experiencing Grace & devine Peace , in a measure I can only dream about ? They've submitted to authority , in as much as they're bearing the unjust consequences for obedience .
Which is why I asked this .
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So I guess my question is , does threat to ones life or mistreatment of ones self , qualify a Christian to disobey authority ? Or , do we submit to that authority , believing that God has His plan , of which we are a part ?
Because tyranny , is really just an abuse of that authority , but is that abuse , our priority ? Doesn't that just make us victims ?
Anyway , hope I haven't offended anyone , none intended .
|
but some of you need to be awakened and slapped silly - William D Rauser | |
| AXEMAN2415
Guitar Weenie
USA
740 Posts | Posted - 10 Jul 2007 : 15:25:07
| quote:
Anyway , hope I haven't offended anyone , none intended .
Rest assured, my dear friend, you have not. When strong opinions are shared, they are bound to come across as uncivil, when it is really just unabashed truth.
Cpat. Blasto, Yourself, Me (Axeman2415), Anon, Jr. and Pastor Halsted, are all passionate individuals, with a strong desire for truth. No one can expect, with a group like this (and hopefully more to come), that strong opinions won't occasionally sting. Especially when someone else is entrenched in an opinion. But we must all learn to rightly divide the Word of Truth. Sometimes that comes in the form of passionate discourse. Believe me, I would rather debate and contend with you all here, then some of the, ummmm...how shall I say it? Oh yeah: idiots that I have contended with on a certain other website forum..... At least you folks care about truth.....
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Exactly Axe , & who shut the lions mouths ? , who was in the furnace with Daniels three mates ? , who busted Peter out of prison ? who delivered the Israelites ? Not themselves , not their brothers , not the monarch of the time , not the elected officials , God did .
Why ? all these people allowed God to move on their behalf . They didn't take things into their own hands , unlike the Eureka stockade { revolution Aussie style lol }.
I am not familiar with the story behind Eureka Stokade, so forgive my lack of understanding that reference.
However, although I agree with your point, that God was allowed to move on those individual's behalves (is that a word? "Behalves"...lol), I think that is somewhat single dimensional in the scope of our discourse. Let us remember that Daniel was considered a very "able administrator", even before God moved on his behalf. However, irrespective of that, the discussion at hand is not whether God delivered these people, it is whether Christians should aid, abet, or participate in actions that defy Governments.
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You bet he was , was he right to do so ? you bet , why ? because Gods' law always overrides any civil law , contrary to His .
Yet, as I understand the progression of the discussion, what I seem to be receiving is that , according to Romans 13, all law is from God, Spiritual, Moral, Civil, Societal, and Cultural. So, therefore, you're essentially telling me that any action that breaks the laws of God, irregardless of application, is therefore in opposition to God, and is not required to be obeyed. Thus, when people choose to break from laws which are actually unlawful, they are not in disobedience to God's law. And, therefore, people are justified in rebelling against tyrants and dictators, because their laws are actually not in accordance with God's laws, and therefore nullified. I completely agree with that sentiment.
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Let's look at our Brothers in China , Russia , Indonesia , Uganda , do they need God to deliver them from their abusive leaders ? Is that what they're praying for ? { I know that's what I'd be praying for , just like the Israelites } , or are they praying for enough strength to endure , so as to not bring shame upon their Lord ? Are they experiencing Grace & devine Peace , in a measure I can only dream about ? They've submitted to authority , in as much as they're bearing the unjust consequences for obedience .
Which is why I asked this .
In all honesty, our brothers and siters in Christ located in these regions, have certainly not been obedient to the reigning authorities, because the authorities wish to trample out the Gospel of Christ, and our Brethren are continuing in their faith. They are sometimes hiding from the authorities, and they are hiding Bibles from them, illegally distributing Bibles, and continuing to gather for worship, all against the law of the land. And before any of my fellow believers stone me for sacrilege, I agree with our Brothren abroad. They should disobey.
And I do believe they are praying for deliverance from abuse and torture, ridicule and discomfort. I am with you, Shred, I would be praying for that, as well.They may very well be praying for strength to endure, but they are hoping for relief.
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but please remember , I'm not picking on America .
I, and my fellow posters, know that you are not. And even so, America, as much as I love it, is certainly not flawless, or without stain and guilt. That is the downside of a free society. However, Jesus told us to let the Wheat and the Tares grow up together. He will sort them out later. |
"C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!" |
Edited by - AXEMAN2415 on 10 Jul 2007 15:26:26 | |
| AnonJr
Absent-minded Webmaster
USA
621 Posts | Posted - 10 Jul 2007 : 21:20:58
| quote:
Originally posted by Captain Blasto
quote:
Originally posted by AnonJr
That's why Blasto is sooo cool... P.S. the "Edit Post" button () is for at the top of each post.
I'm feeling distinctly mis-quoted... |
There's no trick to being a humorist when you have the whole government working for you.
- Will Rogers | |
| Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 11 Jul 2007 : 03:56:20
| So can I revolt or not? ...or am I already revolting?
There seems to be a Permissive and a Divine Will of God....
Is war justifiable? Is it at times necessary?
Wormhood is tough once your out of the protection of the can...  |
President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
| Shredhead
Junior Member
Australia
322 Posts | Posted - 11 Jul 2007 : 05:51:17
| quote:
Yet, as I understand the progression of the discussion, what I seem to be receiving is that , according to Romans 13, all law is from God, Spiritual, Moral, Civil, Societal, and Cultural. So, therefore, you're essentially telling me that any action that breaks the laws of God, irregardless of application, is therefore in opposition to God, and is not required to be obeyed. Thus, when people choose to break from laws which are actually unlawful, they are not in disobedience to God's law. And, therefore, people are justified in rebelling against tyrants and dictators, because their laws are actually not in accordance with God's laws, and therefore nullified. I completely agree with that sentiment.
I'm sure we're on the same page , but I would say all authority is from God , not all law .
Remember.... lol , did you ever hear about , when the Nazi's were being tried for war crimes , their arguement was , " we were only obeying the law of the land , we did nothing wrong " , the judge said , " but there is a higher Law to which we're all accountable " .
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However, irrespective of that, the discussion at hand is not whether God delivered these people, it is whether Christians should aid, abet, or participate in actions that defy Governments.
In my opinion , only if it is to uphold a law or principle that God has established . Not simply because we don't like it .
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In all honesty, our brothers and siters in Christ located in these regions, have certainly not been obedient to the reigning authorities, because the authorities wish to trample out the Gospel of Christ, and our Brethren are continuing in their faith.
True , they've broken the law , to uphold the Law . What I was trying to convey was , they've submitted to the authorities by accepting the consequences of upholding the first commandment , much like Daniel .
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So can I revolt or not?
Let me know where & when Capn .
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or am I already revolting?
I'll let those closer to you than I answer that one
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Is war justifiable? Is it at times necessary?
That's a big 10/4 good buddy .
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There seems to be a Permissive and a Divine Will of God....
& speaking of worms .
Of course all this will be null & void once Will is elected supreme leader . |
but some of you need to be awakened and slapped silly - William D Rauser | |
| AXEMAN2415
Guitar Weenie
USA
740 Posts | Posted - 11 Jul 2007 : 11:03:23
| quote:
Of course all this will be null & void once Will is elected supreme leader .
Don't worry, I will not require anyone to bow to me...that would be sacreligious. However, a humble "Your Majesty" will do just fine....lol
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I'm sure we're on the same page , but I would say all authority is from God , not all law .
Now, that's an important distinction. However, we must at least agree that the manifestation of authority is through law. If you break the law, are not, therefore, defying authority?
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Remember.... lol , did you ever hear about , when the Nazi's were being tried for war crimes , their arguement was , " we were only obeying the law of the land , we did nothing wrong " , the judge said , " but there is a higher Law to which we're all accountable " .
Yeah..."I was only obeying orders." There is such a thing as unlawful orders, and subordinates are not only encouraged, but required to defy orders that are contrary toregulations set by Military Justice and even certain civil codes.
I cannot help but wonder, though, if this same situation were to arise today, would a judge presiding over such a case would be so morally aware as to acknowledge a Supreme Authority over the affairs of men?
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Wormhood is tough once your out of the protection of the can...
Man, I have to use that one somewhere...lol
|
"C'mon Dave, Gimme a break!" |
Edited by - AXEMAN2415 on 11 Jul 2007 11:04:44 | |
| Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 11 Jul 2007 : 17:40:03
| | We must remember that the colonial period was also a very tumultuous time for The Church in general and there were many challanges to the authority of leaders in the church (Catholic and Protestant) which certainly led as well to challenges regarding the authority of leaders of nations... All of this upheaval contributed to the willingness and/or boldness of men to challenge the powers that had until then been accepted as God-ordained. If the highest path is always to acquiesce we then must ask if it would have been right to have let Hitler do his deeds and then let God miraculously deliver us. I think that just as He works through men as His hands and feet to perform good works to His Glory we must also understand that none of us has the ability to acertain exactly which acts are covered under His blood and which are not. I mean essentially all are but all are not placed there. There are heart issues at hand. When men move in faith they seem to become justified... |
President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
| Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 11 Jul 2007 : 18:21:19
| | While this nation's inception and admittedly violent establishment was certainly at the hands of both godly and ungodly men I would venture to say that God has a way of allowing or not allowing things to come to pass (as they fit His plan) and just maybe for the elect's sake He allowed this nation to be established for such a time as WWII and even present day events in part to preserve His "root" nation Israel. We are still apparently a nation of intermittently fluctuating ratios of godly and ungodly men. Which direction those fluctuations travel is at God's discretion through us and our individual responses to His Holy Spirit's promptings. The fact that by God's permissive will we remain established as a nation is kind of an indication of the authenticity of the authority vested in this government by God... How long that protection continues is a seperate issue... If He at some point in the future does not spare this nation's destruction it would beg the question of how many righteous (Like the case for Sodom) it contained. |
President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
| Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 11 Jul 2007 : 18:24:09
| quote:
When men move in faith they seem to become justified...
faith... "in Christ"... that is..... |
President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
| Shredhead
Junior Member
Australia
322 Posts | Posted - 12 Jul 2007 : 01:42:11
| quote:
However, we must at least agree that the manifestation of authority is through law. If you break the law, are not, therefore, defying authority?
You would be disobeying a civil authority . I must add , just because God has appointed someone to have authority over others , does not preclude them from abusing that God given authority , civily or spritually .
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If the highest path is always to acquiesce we then must ask if it would have been right to have let Hitler do his deeds and then let God miraculously deliver us.
Sort of , God was certainly able to extinguish Hitlers' uprising without any help from us . But the way I see it is , we as Christians have a responsibility to defend the defenceless . When Jesus was taken in the garden & Peter lopped off that soldiers ear , why was Peter wrong to do that ? Forgetting for a moment that Jesus was giving Himself to our Fathers' will . If Peter really believed Jesus is who He says He is , did he honestly think that God needed Peter to protect Him ?
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When men move in faith they seem to become justified...
I completely agree , when it's Faith . But Faith would never contradict God , in fact , it would only display Him . The danger I see , is when people call their own will or agenda's , faith .
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While this nation's inception and admittedly violent establishment was certainly at the hands of both godly and ungodly men I would venture to say that God has a way of allowing or not allowing things to come to pass (as they fit His plan) and just maybe for the elect's sake He allowed this nation to be established for such a time as WWII and even present day events in part to preserve His "root" nation Israel.
Hmmm , interesting , & please believe me when I say you could well be right , I don't know . For the sake of the discussion , I'll continue to use your example of America , BUT !! , I am in no way sledging America or it's people . I'm still reminded of Peter , Jesus didn't need his help ..... Jehoshophat , God used musicians to win the battle , not soldiers .... God sprung the locks of the jail to release Peter . While I agree God uses us to carry out His will , which is just as much for our growth , as the one being helped , I wouldn't agree that He has to .
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The fact that by God's permissive will we remain established as a nation is kind of an indication of the authenticity of the authority vested in this government by God
I agree , all authority is given by God . However , if that's indicative of providence , then it must also be true of Australia , India , Indonesia , Africa etc .
quote:
We must remember that the colonial period was also a very tumultuous time for The Church in general and there were many challanges to the authority of leaders in the church (Catholic and Protestant) which certainly led as well to challenges regarding the authority of leaders of nations... All of this upheaval contributed to the willingness and/or boldness of men to challenge the powers that had until then been accepted as God-ordained.
Always has though Capn , look at Moses , Miriam didn't fare too well though . I'm not saying we shouldn't challenge authority , that is after all how the reformation started , I'm saying we should only challenge it , if it is contrary to Gods' Law , or Word .
Phew ! Hey Anon , this has got to be getting close to 3 pages.... you've backed it up right ? lol . |
but some of you need to be awakened and slapped silly - William D Rauser | |
| Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 12 Jul 2007 : 02:25:28
| | ...I wonder though to what degree we can then say that things must digress before such action is acceptable? I think we all can agree that there would be a fair arguement regarding all countries' and their leaders' ability to completely obey God's laws and Word. As individuals we seem to have some degree of difficulty with that. This would then seem to justify the challenging of all authority from a strictly "justified by obedience" perspective. Just as God measures each of us in regard to "our heart" maybe nations are to be considered in a similar light. What was the heart of the King of England at the time of the American Revolution ? ...and that of those who rebelled ? ...Only God can answer such questions ...Who can know the heart ? ...We all find ourselves in varying proximity (of heart) to God at various times in our life... It's hard to admit to that... and yet even in such times He can use our percieved distance to make our hearts grow fonder... |
President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
| Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | Posted - 12 Jul 2007 : 04:00:48
| So the question remains then.... what will America become?
Was the post 9/11 rendition of "God Bless America" to be the last time that America cries out to the God that they once embraced ? Awash in a sea of prayers offered up to other God's...
the God's of new inhabitants?
Sampson is a cold reminder...
While I am thankful to have been blessed to live in this country in these days, I know where my real allegience lies... There is a reason for the order in the phrase "For God and country"
I (like Abraham) seek a city with foundations... one whose builder and maker is God... (The GOD)
I am afraid that the good old US of A cannot quite live up to that and still represent everyone else... and she seems ever more adrift... Pray for "The Peace" <<< (Jesus) of Jerusalem
(Jeru-shalom)... The Prince of Peace establishes the city of peace...
Hezekiah at the wall... 15 more years?
We allow the ACLU to reject any mention of God by our government...
as our enemies build schools and mosques in our country to teach their children how to hate us...
Columbine was a warning beacon for (9/11 & ?)larger scale things to come...
Apathy...
Just as those boys' parents lived unaware of what their children were doing in the garage... are we blind to what our enemies are doing under our noses and under our protection?
I need to chill.... |
President of the
Juan Valdez fanclub
Kirk Out | |
| Shredhead
Junior Member
Australia
322 Posts | Posted - 12 Jul 2007 : 07:07:48
| quote:
...I wonder though to what degree we can then say that things must digress before such action is acceptable?
You mean disobeying authority ? I think as soon as the thought is given birth . Isn't this why God has written His Law on our hearts , so that we'd know straight away that something is wrong . That's why when someone asks us , " is abortion really wrong ? " , " is it ok to divorce my wife just because I fancy someone else ? " , we can/should answer based on Gods' unchanging Word .
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I think we all can agree that there would be a fair arguement regarding all countries' and their leaders' ability to completely obey God's laws and Word. As individuals we seem to have some degree of difficulty with that
Agreed , however as individuals we don't legislate , our leaders do . When that legislature contradicts Gods' word , directly or indirectly , then , it's our duty to not only question it , but I would say defy it .
quote:
What was the heart of the King of England at the time of the American Revolution ? ...and that of those who rebelled ?
Here's a question for ya , what if , like Pharoah , God hardened the kings heart ? What if today , we find ourselves governed by men whose heart God has hardened ? As you've said , it's impossible for us to know , but , is our responsibility dependant on anothers heart or actions ? No , all we can do , is what we can do . Ultimately , we obey & submit to God .
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So the question remains then.... what will America become?
The question remains , what will become of the world & how many can we stop from joining it's fate .
quote:
I need to chill....
Cheer up Capn , God is still in control . |
but some of you need to be awakened and slapped silly - William D Rauser | |
| Captain Blasto
Cappuccino Junkie
USA
212 Posts | | | Topic | |
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